Learning Tdm (Resources And Discussions)

[Raggydoll]

9 minutes ago, devin said:

Aha, well, I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but Ms. Elias appears to have, ahem, derived her initial pip meanings from Dawn Jackson's never completed Hedgewytchery system for reading playing cards. As far as I know, only the obliquest of oblique credit is given.

 

Anyway, Ms. Jackson seems to regard seven as a troublesome number. Observe her little cartomantic rhyme:

 

***

An Ace brings beginnings,

And Two gives exchange,

Three shows things growing,

But Four does not change.

Five is the body,

Its health and its stead,

Six shows a path

That the Seeker shall tread. 

Seven brings troubles

That Fate has assigned,

While Eight shows ideas

And thoughts in the mind.

Nine heralds changes,

And Ten is the end,

While Kings are the symbols

Of power and men.

Queens are the emblems

Of women and truth,

A Knave is a message,

A girl, or a youth. 

***

 

And thus the seven of coins (diamonds, actually):

 

***

A troubled purse or financial problem.  Profits down.  The means will not reach the end sought.  Clairvoyance and foretelling.  The talent of seeing and speaking true.  Psychism in general. 

***

 

Ta-dah!

 

[Source]

Yes I believe that Camelia mentioned that source very briefly in one of her books so I think you are right. 

[Starlight]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I feel that the change is obvious and I also think it’s unfortunate. I think the attitude makes her examples carry less weight. I definitely feel like it’s an image and it feels silly, to be honest. The same message can be said in many ways. Why opt for the rude or condescending one? So far I much prefer the tone in her first book. I haven’t read all of it yet though and I will comment more when I have. But the difference stood out so much that I wanted to share it. 

Woah, huge change in tone! She sounds like she really doesn't care about the people who come to her. It's a complete contrast to the tone in the first book, almost like a completely different person! Power-tripping?

I think I'll pass on Elias. TFS.

 

I've added Fortune Telling by Cards by P.R.S. Foli to my reading list for the pips. I think I'll start with the recommendation here to observe and jot down how each of the pips "feels", and then cross-reference with Foli to see what's similar and different.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Starlight

[Marigold]

What is hugely useful when one is learning the pips, is to place all the pips in a row in front of us and to see their evolution. They can't really be studied one card at a time. They're a whole before they get picked apart. Look and see how they develop. What is added. What is missing. Is there more vegetation than less ? And if so why ? Colours can also be studied. Then one can compare the different 2s, 3s, etc. See if there is any connection. And if not, why not ? 

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

Aha, well, I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but Ms. Elias appears to have, ahem, derived her initial pip meanings from Dawn Jackson's never completed Hedgewytchery system for reading playing cards. As far as I know, only the obliquest of oblique credit is given.

Well, that explains a lot. 7 is the number of perfection in all its glory. Of course, in its reversed meaning it has a different colour. But to say that its initial meaning is "trouble" is absurd. There are complications though in its reversed meaning. In fact, that's the reversed meaning I give to the 7 of Coins in the TdM : Complication.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Marigold

[Starlight]

11 minutes ago, Marigold said:

What is hugely useful when one is learning the pips, is to place all the pips in a row in front of us and to see their evolution. They can't really be studied one card at a time. They're a whole before they get picked apart. Look and see how they develop. What is added. What is missing. Is there more vegetation than less ? And if so why ? Colours can also be studied. Then one can compare the different 2s, 3s, etc. See if there is any connection. And if not, why not ? 

Ok! Thank you. Will do. If you ever do get round to putting a TdM course together, I'll sign up!

[Marigold]

43 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Ok! Thank you. Will do. If you ever do get round to putting a TdM course together, I'll sign up!

I will, but it will be on another forum. It's a commitment that I made for the new year. And one day, I'll put something together to be downloaded free for charge from the internet but not before a year or two as I want it to be as perfect as possible and this will take a lot of time.  But I'll always be popping in here. I also can't help react when I hear nonsense being spouted about the TdM like Troubled Times with 7 Coins. I will defend it to the end. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Marigold

[_R_]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

What is hugely useful when one is learning the pips, is to place all the pips in a row in front of us and to see their evolution. They can't really be studied one card at a time. They're a whole before they get picked apart. Look and see how they develop. What is added. What is missing. Is there more vegetation than less ? And if so why ? Colours can also be studied. Then one can compare the different 2s, 3s, etc. See if there is any connection. And if not, why not ? 

For reference, this method is explained in detail (for the suit of Swords) in Tchalaï's LWB; the other suits are dealt with likewise in her book (not yet available in English).

[Raggydoll]

I found the passage where Camelia mentions hedgewytch. She also mentions the other things that inspired her, like the work of Enrique and her studies of psychology, shamanism (I think neo-shamanism would have been a more apt description) and druidry. So it’s a mixed bag. All this is from her first book, I believe in her later books she is more focusing on Zen and detachment. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, Starlight said:

Ok! Thank you. Will do. If you ever do get round to putting a TdM course together, I'll sign up!

I think we could well arrange a TdM study group here if people are interested. We could discuss it perhaps in the new year? I think it would be a lovely addition to this forum. 

[Raggydoll]

And as a complete side note, I just got a message that my Mamayuki tarot sits with Swedish customs. It was a fast delivery from Japan and the shipping was free. It cost me around 13 euro extra for tax and custom fees. Not bad at all in comparison of other decks that I’ve bought in the past. Now I just have to wait for them to release it to me. I will show you pics once it’s in my hands 👍 Maybe I’ll do a small comparison with the Madenie in size and style? 

[Flaxen]

7 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

And as a complete side note, I just got a message that my Mamayuki tarot sits with Swedish customs. It was a fast delivery from Japan and the shipping was free. It cost me around 13 euro extra for tax and custom fees. Not bad at all in comparison of other decks that I’ve bought in the past. Now I just have to wait for them to release it to me. I will show you pics once it’s in my hands 👍 Maybe I’ll do a small comparison with the Madenie in size and style? 

Can’t wait to hear what you think of it! It’s much smaller than the Madenie. 

[Marigold]

I wonder what the heavy plagiarizing war was all about.

 

And this brings me to another point which makes me annoyed... even sad. This question of wanting to appropriate one's discoveries as one's own. It's the Tarot that has inspired us... it's HER content. Not ours. (I have found myself recently referring to the Tarot as "She"... I don't knoiw why. It just happened.)

 

If people copied my posts or writing verbatim and said they were there "own" personally I wouldn't bat an eyelid. As long as the ideas are getting OUT there, who cares in what form they are. Like the study I'm wanting to initiate on another forum... if someone goes peeking and then goes and copies my posts to put over here... well that's just fine and dandy. No need to even mention my name. 

 

And if my words got twisted out of context and corrupted... well anyone who has some discernment will realise this. I really can't stand it when people want to copyright the Tarot of Marseilles. Let them do it with Waite if they want to but not the TdM - the only people who would be entitled to protest were the people who designed the cards in the Middle Ages and there was no copyright in those days.

[Raggydoll]

1 minute ago, Flaxen said:

Can’t wait to hear what you think of it! It’s much smaller than the Madenie. 

That’s excellent 😀. I can put it next to the mini Ancien Marseille too and see how they compare in size. Mini decks get me so excited! 😄 I love that you can do a spread on a small surface and that it’s takes up no room in a bag. I like to take mini decks with me when I go to my childhood home. And now I’ll have two mini TdM to bring - what joy! Last winter my mom suggested that I could do readings outside in the snow, with a sheep skin as a reading cloth. And for those occasions mini decks are especially great 😛

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I wonder what the heavy plagiarizing war was all about.

I was wondering that too, and I think that maybe @gregory will know. 

2 minutes ago, Marigold said:

 If people copied my posts or writing verbatim and said they were there "own" personally I wouldn't bat an eyelid. As long as the ideas are getting OUT there, who cares in what form they are. Like the study I'm wanting to initiate on another forum... if someone goes peeking and then goes and copies my posts to put over here... well that's just fine and dandy. No need to even mention my name. 

🙂 That’s very generous of you but I think we’d all prefer it if YOU were the one copying/sharing it over here. Either way, I wish you all the best with your study group 💗

 

[Marigold]

Oh, I can't keep away from a TdM study group!!! It would be going against my very nature. 

[Aoife]

I don't think the plagarising business was at AT - my recollection was that stuff was pinched from her blog.

[Raggydoll]

28 minutes ago, Aoife said:

I don't think the plagarising business was at AT - my recollection was that stuff was pinched from her blog.

That does ring a bell. It’s so unfortunate that she never got to finish her book. 

[Starlight]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I think we could well arrange a TdM study group here if people are interested. We could discuss it perhaps in the new year? I think it would be a lovely addition to this forum. 

YES! 😃

[Guest]

4 hours ago, _R_ said:

For reference, this method is explained in detail (for the suit of Swords) in Tchalaï's LWB; the other suits are dealt with likewise in her book (not yet available in English).

6 hours ago, Marigold said:

What is hugely useful when one is learning the pips, is to place all the pips in a row in front of us and to see their evolution. They can't really be studied one card at a time. They're a whole before they get picked apart. Look and see how they develop. What is added. What is missing. Is there more vegetation than less ? And if so why ? Colours can also be studied. Then one can compare the different 2s, 3s, etc. See if there is any connection. And if not, why not ? 

Yes. I’ve always felt that this is one of the best exercises. But I also find looking at the four aces, four twos, is also useful. 

[Losgunna]

11 hours ago, Starlight said:

Ok! Thank you. Will do. If you ever do get round to putting a TdM course together, I'll sign up!

Me too me too! 🤩👍

[Losgunna]

10 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I think we could well arrange a TdM study group here if people are interested. We could discuss it perhaps in the new year? I think it would be a lovely addition to this forum. 

I’m interested! 

 

🙏🙏🙏

 

(Sorry, rather new here and don’t know how to quote different ones at one place 😜)

[Losgunna]

13 hours ago, Marigold said:

What is hugely useful when one is learning the pips, is to place all the pips in a row in front of us and to see their evolution. They can't really be studied one card at a time. They're a whole before they get picked apart. Look and see how they develop. What is added. What is missing. Is there more vegetation than less ? And if so why ? Colours can also be studied. Then one can compare the different 2s, 3s, etc. See if there is any connection. And if not, why not ? 

Sorry to ask this again 😝

 

i am in the middle of this exercise and a little bit stuck on how the deniers 3 and 7 is oriented?

 

somehow i find it interesting to see the 3 of cups: 2 as base and 1 on top and by the deniers for example 1 as base en 2 on top so opposite from the cups, or do you orient it the same as the cups? (I suppose most of the times it’s 2 base/1 top but somehow, i have the Noblet and it’s kind of logical how it evolves from the flowers in deniers 2, but i can be totally wrong/miss it)

 

And what about the deniers 7? 4 as base with 3 at top or the opposite? Both can be interesting but can’t make up my mind about the 7 😋 (logical would be 4 as base but if you look at the Chariot: you could take the 2 horses with above the human as base/triangle and build the 4 on this)

 

what do you prefer? Choose? Feels right?

 

thank you so much for your insights!!! 🙏👍✨

 

(Sorry, maybe this totally don’t belong here but in the studygroup, otherwise i move/remove it!)

Edited December 10, 2019 by Losgunna

[devin]

20 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I found the passage where Camelia mentions hedgewytch

Okay, thanks, that's better than I remember. Personally, I still feel she should have gone further - out of politeness if nothing else.

 

That being said, I do find Ms. Elias quite likable and owe her a debt for bringing certain techniques to my attention. I also had a very brief exchange with her some time ago and found her to be much friendlier and far more generous than one might infer from her 'marketing' persona. So, there.

 

As an aside, that little rhyme I posted is actually a very easy way to get up and running with reading pips. If one simply takes the significance of number as outlined in the rhyme and combines it with the suit of any particular card, this is the number/suit method. So, as per above, sixes are pathways, thus a six of coins (finances, communication) could be a business trip or financial negotiations, a six of swords (trouble) could show heading in the wrong direction or an ill-fated holiday, and a six of cups (positivity, family, home, love, etc.) could represent a family holiday, taking a relationship to another level, or, more generally, an auspicious direction to pursue. Easy. It does, of course, take practice and the real trick is in interpreting the cards in context and combination. 

 

Which reminds me, I just received my copy of Papus's Divinatory Tarot as translated by Beryl Stockman (thanks for the tip-off @_R_).

 

These from the blurb:

 

"In this summary of the main movements in popular tarot up to 1880, Papus reveals the interpretive matrix from which virtually all modern tarot interpretations are derived."

 

"Papus makes a definitive exposition of the minor arcana tradition built up over the previous century by Etteilla, d'Odoucet, Mlle Lenormand, Paul Christian and Eliphas Levi."

 

At first glance, it does seem to live up to its billing.

 

https://www.aeonbooks.co.uk/product/the-divinatory-tarot/24558/

[Raggydoll]

19 minutes ago, devin said:

Okay, thanks, that's better than I remember. Personally, I still feel she should have gone further - out of politeness if nothing else.

 

That being said, I do find Ms. Elias quite likable and owe her a debt for bringing certain techniques to my attention. I also had a very brief exchange with her some time ago and found her to be much friendlier and far more generous than one might infer from her 'marketing' persona. So, there.

 

As an aside, that little rhyme I posted is actually a very easy way to get up and running with reading pips. If one simply takes the significance of number as outlined in the rhyme and combines it with the suit of any particular card, this is the number/suit method. So, as per above, sixes are pathways, thus a six of coins (finances, communication) could be a business trip or financial negotiations, a six of swords (trouble) could show heading in the wrong direction or an ill-fated holiday, and a six of cups (positivity, family, home, love, etc.) could represent a family holiday, taking a relationship to another level, or, more generally, an auspicious direction to pursue. Easy. It does, of course, take practice and the real trick is in interpreting the cards in context and combination. 

 

Which reminds me, I just received my copy of Papus's Divinatory Tarot as translated by Beryl Stockman (thanks for the tip-off @_R_).

 

These from the blurb:

 

"In this summary of the main movements in popular tarot up to 1880, Papus reveals the interpretive matrix from which virtually all modern tarot interpretations are derived."

 

"Papus makes a definitive exposition of the minor arcana tradition built up over the previous century by Etteilla, d'Odoucet, Mlle Lenormand, Paul Christian and Eliphas Levi."

 

At first glance, it does seem to live up to its billing.

 

https://www.aeonbooks.co.uk/product/the-divinatory-tarot/24558/

Thank you for sharing those thoughts and experiences and I am not the least surprised to hear that there is more to her than the image in those last two books. I am enjoying reading her 'big book' and I definitely feel that she has something unique to say, even if its a partly a spin on what others have said previously. 

[gregory]

22 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I was wondering that too, and I think that maybe @gregory will know. 

 

 

gregory doesn't, but gregory will rootle... 🙂 Does anyone have the original address of her website ?

 

ETA she had a blog which is still up but extremely dormant:

 

http://webwytchery.blogspot.com

 

which led me to:

 

http://www.hedgewytchery.com/indexb.html

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20071209233804/http://www.hedgewytchery.com/cartomancy.html

 

No time to read on just now....

Edited December 11, 2019 by gregory